The Emotional Alchemy Podcast
Welcome to the Emotional Alchemy Podcast where safety is medicine, connection is never automated and everything is relational.
The Emotional Alchemy Podcast
122. WEBS OF TRUTH: On Authenticity with Lindsey Lockett
Webs of Truth is a monthly sub-podcast of The Rooted Business Podcast with Spiritual Business Mentor Kat Lee and the Holistic Trauma Healing Podcast with Holistic Trauma Educator Lindsey Lockett.
Kat and Lindsey explore authenticity as a pathway to having your needs met. Many of us have lost touch with our authentic selves in our pursuit of attachment, influenced by childhood experiences and cultural expectations. We share insights on balancing needs in relationships, explaining how authenticity can help us meet our needs while maintaining connection. We share personal anecdotes to illustrate how these factors have influenced our own journeys of self-discovery.
We uncover how reclaiming authority and sovereignty, exploring and actualizing our desires, and giving ourselves permission to follow our passions can empower us on this journey. We also delve into the power of names, discussing how reclaiming our true names can serve as a potent tool for self-identification and authenticity.
As coaches with online presences, we discuss the importance of finding reciprocity online and overcoming the fear of visibility and judgment. As we challenge the archetype of 'the good girl', we hope to demonstrate the transformative power of authenticity and inspire you on your own journey of reclamation, resilience, and self-discovery.
Resources:
- The Myth of Normal by Gabor Mate with Daniel Mate
- Kat references how her business was asking her to commit in Ep. 111 of The Rooted Business Podcast
- Kat has interviewed Daniel Mate on Ep. 102 of The Rooted Business Podcast
- Lindsey takes empowering, sexy dance lessons from Lux
Lindsey Lockett is a trauma educator and coach who specializes in working with the autonomic nervous system. Through private and group coaching and one-of-a-kind workshop experiences, Lindsey guides her clients and students toward building trusting relationships with their bodies. She is the host of the Holi
Kat HoSoo Lee is an Emotional Alchemy Coach, Spiritual Business Mentor and host of The Emotional Alchemy Podcast.
She loves playing in the space where science and spirituality converge because this is where we get to experience emotional alchemy. In her work, she educates space-holders about somatic physiology and environmental biology so they can deepen their practices of listening and presence which ultimately helps them expand their capacity to hold space for others.
As a Spiritual Business Mentor, she guides soulful entrepreneurs to approach their business as a spiritual practice. The work bridges the emotional landscape with practical tools which allow them to cultivate businesses that are rooted in conscious values, relational marketing and purposeful service.
This podcast is made possible with sound production by Andre Lagace.
Yay, we're doing this, Lindsay.
Speaker 2:We're doing it, welcome to Waffle Crews I.
Speaker 1:This has been a long-awaited project. I'm really excited. This is going to be the first of many, many episodes together. I'm hoping, fingers crossed, yay. Yeah, the plan is to release one of these every month, and so, if you like nerding out about a particular topic with us, each one's going to have a theme. Today's theme is authenticity, and it was inspired by your community, lindsay, and so we're going to be covering a lot of ground around authenticity, but you had an idea to get us started, so do you want to jump in here and let's?
Speaker 2:play. Yeah, I think the most natural place to start is sort of answering the question why do we not live authentically? And I love to refer to Gabor Maté for this, and we have a quote from him and he says people have two needs attachment and authenticity. When authenticity threatens attachment, attachment trumps authenticity. So what comes up for me in my own story whenever I read this quote is my childhood, and in my childhood I received the message, both overtly and covertly, that I was too much and my feelings were too much.
Speaker 2:My smart mouth was too much, my questions were too much, and so I learned to contort myself in all kinds of different ways to try to not be too much for my parents, because being too much with my stepfather meant I was going to get, like, verbally abused or physically abused, and being too much with my mother meant I was going to get emotionally abandoned, which for me was far worse than verbal or spiritual abuse or, I'm sorry, verbal or physical abuse. And so I lost that authentic nature within myself that all children are innately born with and is so beautiful, and it's why we love kids so much is because of their authenticity. But I chose attachment to my parents and caregivers, not consciously. It wasn't like I woke up every day and was like, okay, I really want to be myself, but I can't because my parents won't let me. It was a very unconscious primal drive to survive, and being attached to my parents was how I got my needs met, and my needs, especially my emotional needs if I was authentic were not met by my mother, and so I had to suppress and repress my own authenticity and learn to people please and conform into a version of myself that was more palatable for her or, like, easier for her to want to be close to, because that's, ultimately, what I crave the most.
Speaker 2:So I truly think that the whole process of the trauma healing journey is really about uncovering all of the things that are not our authentic self and pushing through those layers to find that this is who I really am. Like, love it or hate it, like it or not, whether it's palatable or not, this is who I really am, and part of that includes boundaries and self protection and self love and self trust and safe reciprocal relationships and community is part of authenticity. Being able to speak one's truth and use one's voice as part of authenticity. Being able to show up in the world however you want to show up, however you want to dress, however you feel the most comfortable, and so yeah. What do you have to say about authenticity?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's so interesting because I feel like we're two bookends in a way, and it's something that I've when I zoom out and I look at the clients that I've had over the years. We all carry around a will and of either being too much or not enough, and oftentimes it comes with like a little mix of both, which can be like really, really confusing. But I think that when I look at my childhood, a lot of it was around not being enough rather than being too much, and I can sit here as an adult who is rationalized and integrated and alchemized a lot of the story and tell you like there's a lot of reasons why. You know, like my parents immigrated from Korea before we were born. They worked really, really hard. Their immigration story is really traumatizing. There's a lot in it where I felt like I don't deserve all of this. I don't deserve all this effort that my parents have put in, and so I'm going to be a good girl, I'm going to be perfect, I'm going to do everything that I can to make sure that I earn their love, and they also had really high standards for me, like sort of the stereotypical Asian family story of like you need to get straight A's, you need to be. You know, like excellent at violin, you need to be.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you did you play the violin? Yeah, not that I did. I played the violin. But I played in an orchestra with like a bunch of high schoolers in middle school when I was in middle school and I was the first chair of my orchestra group at like 12, and everyone else I was playing with was like 16 to 18. And so like there's this like theme of like too much, not enough.
Speaker 1:But ultimately it comes down to this concept around how do you get your needs met. And this is where I think that it's really important to have a lot of compassion for your own story, because you know it's so easy to, especially at the beginning of the healing journey, like to beat yourself up for being a perfectionist and being like I should do better, you know. Or beat yourself up for being a people, please, and being like why am I doing that again? And to me, when I hear that from my friends or my clients, I'm thinking like you've got a really, really wise little one in there, because they figured out a way to make sure that their needs got met, and it's just that that strategy is not really helpful anymore.
Speaker 1:And so it's not about, like, abandoning the perfectionist part of you or abandoning the people pleasing part of you and being like you have to, like now be exercised like a demon, you know it's. It's really more about, hey, like that strategy is not working and we do something different. Because, as an adult, you no longer have to rely on belonging like so intimately to your family in order to get your needs met, and so, like, recognizing that you have the capacity and the ability to like meet your own needs, and part of that conversation is you can ask to have your needs met by people you trust. You know, I think that that's something that it took me a really long time to really understand is, like, being on the side of like not enough. It was really hard for me to start asking for support from people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I imagine on the on the flip side as well too. But it was really hard for me to start asking for help and support from people because I didn't have a group of people that I felt like I could reliably just like, lean on and be like hey, like I just need to vent, can you just listen to me vent, you know? Or I'm feeling this particular way, like I just need like a sounding board, and so, like, I went into sort of a hyper independent state at the very beginning of my own healing journey because I didn't have any safe people around me. And so, yeah, I think that there's to me, the healing journey and the spiritual journey is one of the same, and it's a subtractive process.
Speaker 1:We've talked about this before and like, instead of looking at the world and being like, what can I add to my healing journey? What can I add Like, what course can I take? What you know, guru, can I follow? And continuing to look outside of yourself for your own authenticity, versus looking within and being like, hey, is that a condition or is that a narrative, or is that a story that I need to release? And the more and more and more you're able to like, like, discern and shed some of those old stories and those belief systems, the closer and closer you get to your true self, and that's ultimately what I think we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally it is. And like if I had talked longer, I also have the not enough. My not enough comes from when my mother would not meet my attachment needs. Then I would start trying to perform and clean and like, show her my straight A report card and all of that, just throwing spaghetti up against the wall, hoping something would be enough to earn her love and attention back.
Speaker 2:But then I also have this really complex not enoughness that was put on me by evangelical Christianity, where it was like as a, as a woman in the church, like there's so many requirements that you have to meet in order to be seen as good and worthy and pleasing to God, and those requirements are taught through scripture Obviously it's through modern men's interpretations of scripture, but are taught basically like your heart is wicked above all things, you can't trust it, and like a woman who is gentle and quiet is pleasing to the Lord. And so it's like taking these off, these pieces of our authenticity away, and saying no, that's bad. Like you're bad if you use your voice and you're a woman. You're bad if you wear a bikini and you're a woman. Like you can't dress how you want, you can't speak how you want, you have to be under the submission of God and the church and then under the submission of another male, whether that male is your father or then your husband.
Speaker 2:And there's this really weird like transfer of authority where, like, a woman's authority is her father until she's married and then her authority is her husband. And I know, right, it's so gross and like, my authority only ever needs to be myself, right, like my authority doesn't need to be my father or my mother or my husband or the church or any entity or thing outside of myself. And I think that that's what gets robbed from us when we're raised like you were raised, like I was raised in systems like evangelical Christianity and other fundamentalist religions where you are literally conditioned to not trust yourself and to look outside of yourself for what you should think, what you should feel, what you should do, what you should wear, how you should act, how you should speak and yeah, that just it completely like, because I was trying to gain attachment with God and Jesus, I was trying to have attachment with the church.
Speaker 2:I was trying to have attachment with my parents, I was trying to have attachment with, like, all of these different things and craving and needing that attachment is not wrong, yeah Right. But as children, you don't have the cognitive ability to be like wait a second, I don't have to have an authority outside of myself, like I'm allowed to have a voice and assert my autonomy and have an opinion and have needs. Like that's okay, that's allowed. No, as children, when we get punished for being too much or not enough and for not measuring up and for sacrificing our authenticity in order to get our attachment needs met, that forms these patterns that are sometimes lifelong. And the unfortunate thing is, I think a lot of people refer to those adaptive survival patterns as personality, and so then, as an adult, they're like well, this is just how I am.
Speaker 1:That is like, oh man, if I can encapsulate just the biggest block around healing, it's the sentence this is just who I am. I remember hearing that from my ex-husband so many times and it was just like okay, so then I guess we can't work on some of the struggles that we're having in our marriage and it's a conversation ender, and so, whether you're having that conversation with somebody else or within yourself, it is like the shutdown of curiosity and, ultimately, the shutdown of authenticity. I would also say that it's not just the sort of family systems and I grew up in church, but not to the extent that you did but I would say that for me, a lot of my sort of inauthenticity or authenticity wounds have come from the schooling system. I love that you homeschool your children and that even just now, like we were just talking about how you're creating curriculum for your kid and you're going to read a Gabba and Maté book together and discuss it. To me there's something about creating your own curriculum that feels really important. But if you think about what we experience as kids in school, it's such a conditional system you have to take these classes in order to get to the next class, in order to get to the college that you want to go to in order to, it's like step by step by step.
Speaker 1:I feel like I am just now starting to understand that I'm not. I don't know if I feel like I need to take on the identity or the label of ADHD, but I look at that list of symptomology and I'm like, oh, that makes sense. And it didn't work in school, and so I had to adapt and become a very inauthentic version of myself to be successful in school. But we just purchased our property and I'm looking at all the projects around the land and looking at all the different ways that my brain is like and I'm like, well, this is what my brain was made for. It wasn't made for school, you know, yeah, and so like there's something about these systems that are really asking us to conform in order to find belonging, in order to find validation that pulls us away from, like, our own sort of individuation.
Speaker 1:And my husband just sent me this video on Instagram the other day and there was a NASA scientist and they were trying to assess, like how can we look for geniuses to join our program when they grow up? And so they had a child psychologist come in and they had like a sample group of little kids and they started at age five and the way that they defined genius is can this individual come up with creative solutions to the problems? And he found that, in the cohort of five-year-olds, 98% of them he would characterize them as geniuses. And they followed these kids, the same group of kids, all the way up into adulthood and by the time that they graduated from high school, only 2% of them he would, you know, characterize them as being geniuses as defined by his you know concept around being able to come up with creative solutions. Yeah, and so when I hear that it's like it's not like those kids just like came out geniuses and then like lost it on accident?
Speaker 2:No, that was institutionalized out of them.
Speaker 1:Exactly and to me, when I think about what it is that I do with my clients and all my clients are spiritual entrepreneurs and so much of us, so many of us, have come through these institutions, have lived within capitalism, have come from families, have come from you know, whatever your, your, you know cultural mix-up. Kaleidoscope was. A lot of us have been told we have to give our authority to somebody else in order to find success in life, and I think about my work is being like okay, well, is that true? Can we actually bring that sense of authority, as you were talking about earlier, back to yourself and help you make your own decisions about your own business? Can you show up in a way that's really authentic to you and trust that that is going to land with somebody you know?
Speaker 1:And to me it's it's less about like, of course, I love helping people out with their businesses and but there's an equal part of me that's like I love just watching that, like inner five-year-old genius come back to life.
Speaker 1:And to me it's like you know your business, you know your body, you know yourself so much better than I'm ever gonna know it, and so like if we can help you get connected to that, like people come up with the most creative solutions for their businesses and I don't have to tell them anything, you know, and in fact it would be counter to my work to just tell them like, oh, you should do it this way and and it's all about sort of like guiding that work back to yourself within, and I know that that is also. I mean, I you've talked to me like at length about what feel without fear is and that's the core of it, right, is? It's like, yeah, how can you give your own sovereignty back to yourself and reclaim that in a way that, like that inner genius five-year-old gets to just sort of like be so stoked on life?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's, that's absolutely what it is.
Speaker 2:It really is about like, because the I mean, if we think about, if every person listening was to like go back and imagine their five, six, eight, ten-year-old self and the things that you were interested in and the things that lit you up and the, the hobbies you had.
Speaker 2:Like I used to collect rocks and like I used to, I used to make lists of things that I was like interested in and I would make the list an alphabetical order because, again, adhd, right, but like I mean, there's just all these little things that, like I remember wanting to play volleyball so bad whenever I was in middle school and I wasn't allowed to because my mom said that that would take time and energy away from my baton forling, which is what she wanted me to do, and it was all these different ways that, like I over time, learned I am, it's no longer acceptable and I'm no longer allowed to pursue the things that interest me and that I am passionate about or that I would like to learn, and so my, my 30s, especially my late 30s, has been like the reclamation of that and truly giving myself permission to follow what lights me up and to follow my, my heart and what my heart wants to do, and reclaiming what Christianity took away from me, which is my ability to trust my heart and learning that my heart isn't wicked and that my desires are not wicked, that my desires are actually reflections of my authenticity.
Speaker 2:And so when I don't allow myself to pursue my desires or even to have my desires, then I am participating in the same heartbreaking behaviors that my parents did, that the institutional school system did, that the church did, of like tamping down the child's authenticity and the child's desires and the child's needs and wants and passions and play and fun in order to conform to what like, to what like, so that we can be in the 98% of people who don't know how to come up with creative, genius, problem-solving things like. And I'm really grateful that you see that in my homeschooling my kids, because what's so interesting to me is that I was a very fundamentalist evangelical Christian when I started homeschooling my kids, but and I will admit, there was an element of wanting to protect my kids from the secular world in keeping them at home. But more than that, my desire to homeschool my kids came from two main places. The first place that my desire to homeschool my kids came from was when my son was four years old. I remember thinking, oh my goodness, in a year he could be starting kindergarten, he could be like getting up and I could be packing his lunch and putting his little lunchbox in his little backpack and like sending him off to school in a year, and I felt the the biggest sense of grief, of like I can't do that. Like I want my child with me. I don't want to send him off to school at five years old. So that was there for me even before I, even like I didn't know who Gabor Maté was. You know this was this was 13 years ago. I didn't know who Gabor Maté was then. So like that was, my first desire was like I want to still be connected with my child. I don't want to send my kid to school full-time when he's five years old because I need someone to take care of him. I'm home and can take care of him.
Speaker 2:My second reason for wanting to homeschool my kids was because it broke my heart to think about them and their high energy and how playful and imaginative they were.
Speaker 2:Sitting at a desk for seven hours a day, being forced to be still and quiet and not getting to go outside and not getting to learn what they wanted to do and having to do things like trace letters on worksheets and like.
Speaker 2:Thinking about that and how that would rob my children of their childhood to play and explore and be adventurous also broke my heart, and so it was like, even though I didn't have the language that I have now, there was some authentic part of me that was like I am gonna fight hell in high water to give my kids what I did not have, which is the ability to be connected to a parent for most of their childhood and the ability to play, explore, follow their hearts, be creative, experiment with things, do silly things.
Speaker 2:You know, build stuff out of Legos and that's how we learn. Like stuff like that, and so I just appreciate you seeing me for that and, at the same time, like I feel like that was even though I didn't know why, other than my own desire, I was making that decision. Now that I know what I know about attachment theory and authenticity, I'm like that was a parenting win, like I was not a perfect mother, but like I, I would not change that decision. I have no regrets about it whatsoever, because it fostered my kids ability to be authentic.
Speaker 1:I think the piece that I I want to like just sort of unpack with you there because it's so interesting to hear a story of, like you know, pre trauma-informed Lindsay making a decision that was. I imagine it was hard, I imagine it was a bit controversial.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, david was not totally on board with with homeschooling and I really had to. I really had to put my foot down and just say, like you don't even have to be involved, I'll do it now. Over time that changed and I began to ask for his help and his input and then he started to enjoy it as well.
Speaker 1:But at first it really was me standing up for what I desired yeah, and like I'm hearing that like there was a somatic emotional experience that like you could not ignore and and I think that this is where people can sort of get caught up in like ideology is like we can have this like homeschool versus like systemized school learning. It's like you know, as a parent, you get to again, and I think that this is another place where people get their authority and they're sovereign to take it away. A lot is like there's so much well, I do it this way, you should be doing it that way sort of talk that I see on the internet. When it comes to like mothering in particular, I'm not like super involved in like fathering type of accounts, but I see so much like mother shaming because you know Susie's not doing it the same way that like Pam is doing it, or like Stacy's not doing it the way that, like you know it, and so it's about being able to like actually sink into what that somatic feeling of desire is within yourself and being able to make those decisions for you and your family from a place of authenticity.
Speaker 1:I think is is kind of the key place here is like somebody can you know a different mother can sit and be like.
Speaker 1:Actually, I do need that time and space away from my kids and, you know, find a program that works for their family and it is just as legitimate and just as important and authentic as you making the decision to not send your kids away to school.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think that this is where we lose that I want to say trust with ourselves. And you know, it can be about parenting, it can be about business, it can be about relationships, like we have so much of us that is trained to again like look outside of ourselves for decision-making, for information, you know, instead of being like hey, like what, what do? What does my body want to do with this? You know, with this decision, and how can I express and communicate my desires or how can I get those desires met in a way that works for the family and to me, like that's what it, what it all comes back down to, is that authenticity yeah, and if we're if I mean our entire lives is a somatic experience, right, like the whole thing is a somatic experience and emotions are simply messengers.
Speaker 2:They're just the body speaking to us in a language that most of us don't understand how to translate and speak right. And so at the time that I was deciding to homeschool my kids, I did not have somatic language. I did not know how to feel my feelings and interpret messages and all that. But, like I think a lot of people think like, oh, I have this grief coming up, I need to get over this grief so that then I can do the thing. Or I have the anger coming up, so I need to get over the anger and then I can do the thing without going.
Speaker 2:Actually, for me, the grief was not something I needed to get over. For me, the grief was my child and I are not ready to be separated, and the idea of us separating brings up so much sadness and grief, whereas, like for another mother, like who needs to send her kids to school, she may have an overwhelming feeling of guilt come up right. It's like I feel guilty because I need this space for my kids, but I don't know how to honor it without feeling guilty so maybe she homeschools out of guilt because she thinks that's what she should do, right?
Speaker 2:so it's still not coming from that authentic place of feeling that emotion and noticing the stories that's underneath it and then deciding from a sovereign place. Is this story true and do I need to listen to it? Or is this story a pattern of survival, adaptation? Yeah, and you know, if I had felt that grief and then been like, oh well, I just need to get over the grief and then it will be easier to let my kids go, like that would have been so inauthentic, so inauthentic.
Speaker 2:But for some people, they do need to feel that grief and be able to let something go right, and so it's not up to us to decide like, oh well, this is what grief means. It just means you need to feel it and then you can let it go. It's like no, sometimes you feel grief because your body is saying I'm not ready to let something go yet, and forcing the letting go of it is inauthentic. And there's so much. You know, the whole time I was sick in 2018, 2019 like people kept saying, like you just need to let it go like just let go of control, just let go of this, let go of that.
Speaker 2:And I remember googling. What does it mean to let go? Like it was such a. It was such a nebulous concept to me. I was like, okay, all you fuckers are telling me to let it go, but I don't know what you're talking about. And yeah, there's elements of like unintegrated control involved in that and that you know complex PTSD and all of that definitely is involved. But at the same time, I think we praise when people are able to let go and sometimes they are forced to let go of something before they're actually ready and then that comes back and it bites them in the butt again because the body is like you made me do something I wasn't ready to do, yet you forced me, and that's not okay and that was outside of my authenticity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think that this is where, like emotional optimization and integration is so, so important. And something that I think gets glossed over is like I remember I had this idea like if I can just let go, then I won't ever have to like learn this lesson again. And like cool, like I checked off.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, and, and that's not how this work goes. It's like a spiral and some spirals are gonna continue to be hard, some spirals are gonna be like, oh, like I've learned that already before and so it's a little bit easier this time around. You know, but like I don't know, I consider myself to be a fairly emotionally secure, trauma, informed, like you know all those things. And just this last week I had a moment with my husband where he was asking for connection in the middle of the day, when he was like he had the day off and he was like, hey, like can we snuggle? And? And I have this like no sort of reaction. And I kind of snapped at him and I was like, oh, that's kind of an unusual reaction from me and I was like I'm just gonna like sit with that. I'm sorry I snapped at you, but like I'm just gonna like let that be.
Speaker 1:And what came up is like he's home from work, but I'm working from home. It would be the same as, like if I came to him in his workplace and was like, can we hold hands while you drive your bus, like you know? And so I was able to talk to him about that and and his like. He was like, okay, like, I understand that, but like, but like, why did you snap at me, like, was there a better way that you could have communicated with me, you know, and like, and my response was like, yeah, I think I could have communicated that better with you, and in the future I'm gonna try to do that, but in the moment, all I knew was like, I just needed space, you know, and it was like a need that wasn't being met, and so my authentic reaction in that moment was to snap at you to get my space and so, like, like, we get to have and and luckily, like, I've got a really lovely husband who's accepting of of that and it's like, yeah, I get that, you know, but oftentimes we shut down that authentic reaction that we have for fear of not being nice or for fear of like, coming off like a bitch or you know being, you know, characterized as, as something that we don't want to be characterized as, when that snappiness for me, like, was actually communicating a real need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and and I think that the theme that I'm sort of tracking in this conversation is authenticity allows you to have your needs met, and so I think of authenticity as a pathway to having your needs met, and I think that a lot of times people do the opposite, trying to get their needs met, and then confused and conflicted about why they aren't getting their needs met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's such a great example Because I have a lot of clients who you know we spend a lot of time in the like world of spiritual enlightenment and in that world reactions like snapping, are like oh, how could you calm down and say that in a more grounded way? You know, like and, and I would say that that's like sort of spiritually bypassing over that, like very real reaction and need in your body and like this speaks to how primal and unconscious our nervous system responses are. Because when I hear you say that, when I'm filtering it through my lens of what I know about the nervous system and so I know that it sounds like what you were experiencing when you snapped at your husband was this feeling of irritation Like that you're irritated, that he would even ask that because you are fully in your work day and it's irritating to be distracted when you're in, when you're not in that space, right, like you're in the flow of your work day I probably would have reacted the exact same way and could you develop the ability to notice that irritation and fully feel it in your body and all of that and not snap and just call me, be like no, sean, I'm in the middle of my work day. Let's connect later. Like sure you could develop that right, absolutely you could, but do you have to?
Speaker 2:I don't think you do, because the difference in Sean and someone else is that even if you snap at Sean, he's still safe and he's still there, and so you're allowed to have that reaction and it not be something that is bad or that you get punished for or that deserves some sort of like isolation or withdrawal of affection and attunement, like he's still able to give you that affection and that attunement, knowing that like you're not trying to hurt him and like I think sometimes that's what we don't give ourselves the space for, because we're so used to judging our reactions to things.
Speaker 2:And you know, I, yeah sure if your reaction is like explosive and you're yelling at him and something like that, like absolutely that's, that's that's actually hurting someone else and harming someone else, but to just be like no, like that's not harmful, yeah, yeah, right, and like and there is space for you to exist in that and your body is letting you know through this irritation, like I want to be in this flow of doing this work thing over here and I feel a little bit angry because it feels like a boundary in my workday is being crossed in order to meet this need for you. Yeah, and is that what was happening for you?
Speaker 1:It was, and I think that the one sort of like correction that I want to make is that, like you know me being like like irritated that he wants to like snuggle on another day, literally like I work here and then the bed is 10 feet that way, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:You know your work is in your periphery, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think that there is the potential for a loss of connection there. So if we're taking it back to this concept of connection and authenticity, like he has had like past partners who have not been as snuggly as I have, and so he does sort of take that a little bit in a sensitive direction, but I think that in a relationship dynamic, where there is authenticity and there is connection, we also have the understanding that there is going to also be rupture and repair. And so, like my authentic reaction put a rupture in our relationship. It was a small rupture, but there was a rupture there and that rupture was specifically also because he's got a wound around like not being touched enough. So, like there it is, there's a rupture in the middle of our relationship and it's sitting there. And so then it's my responsibility, you know, to to.
Speaker 1:I felt guilty afterwards, you know I felt guilty at snapping at him and so I had to sit with that guilt and be like okay. So what is that guilt telling me? What was that irritated reaction first telling me? And then what was that guilt telling me? And then I could actually go to him afterwards and be like, okay. So here is my authentic story around what that was and we get to have a shared awareness around that.
Speaker 1:And in the last week it's been, I didn't realize that this was something that was happening in our relationship to it, like because he has days off where I'm working and it's a regular occurrence. I just happened to be on that day like really super focused. So, you know, he knows now and it's been really fantastic in the last week where he doesn't really push up on that boundary anymore because he understands he didn't understand that before, because I didn't fully understand it either, you know. And so I think that there's like, there's this place where being authentic and like take this as a parable or a metaphor or however you want to take it as a listener Like being authentic actually helped me get my need met on a deeper level and also preserve the connection between me and my husband. And I think that people are just so scared of that rupture because that's a lot of our wounding and childhood is the fear of the rupture that they don't allow themselves to complete that full cycle of like, rupture and then repair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and it also sounds like like the work that Sean can do around.
Speaker 2:That is, you know, like I'm going to get my need for connection and physical affection met.
Speaker 2:I just might not get it met in the exact moment that I want it met, yeah, but the cat's still here, right. And so that for those of us with any kind of like emotional or physical abandonment, that reassurance that I can't right now but I will meet this need for you later, it's really really important. And you know, I don't authentically feel like I need to stop my feet and cross my arms and be like you have to meet this need for me right now, like that doesn't feel authentic to me. That feels like a spoiled brat, you know, but but it does feel authentic. To be like this need is still really important to me and I understand if you can't meet it right now and I would appreciate the reassurance that you will meet it later. You know, like, but without that repair or that rupture, you don't get that beautiful opportunity for repair and the repair actually is what builds more intimacy and helps you understand each other more. Yeah, and it makes room for more authenticity in the relationship.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, I think that that's the thing that people don't really understand is that when you and your partner can move through those ruptures and repair them Like I know him so much more intimately and deeply than than any other partner, because we've moved through a lot of those and we've had some big ones too, you know and like you were saying, it creates more room for authenticity and deeper connection.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because then you're reminded of his need for connection and affection, he's reminded of your need for space to work, and neither one of nobody's needs are wrong, right, like your needs are not trumping his needs and his needs are not trumping your needs, like it's still equitable. And then you just do the delicate dance of like here's how we need to figure out how to meet both of our needs in the space of this relationship, and that actually feels a lot more spacious than than you having to like stop in the middle of your work day and give him what he wants, and then later you feel resentful because you people pleased and you know, like that whole cycle which is not authentic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and speaking of resentment and business, yeah, I was going to say I feel like this is a good segue.
Speaker 2:We're on the same wavelength. Yeah, I was. I was going to say that I I have noticed for several weeks this resentment towards my business and also towards my Instagram audience, and I was feeling really kind of shut down but like frozen about it, like I want to make some sort of a change, but I don't know what change to make. I felt like my survival needs were threatened and I kind of that. That good girl programming and that like that I'm not enough was definitely coming up for me, and so the pattern that I was in, interestingly, was that I was basically like people pleasing my business and people pleasing the internet to try to make my work as accessible and affordable as possible, because it is a value of mine that this work should be accessible and affordable for people Like I truly, truly do believe that. But my efforts to make my stuff accessible and affordable were actually masking this good girl programming, which is crazy and authentic for me, right, like you've taught about this.
Speaker 2:Yes, I have. I've talked about this a lot. No woman is authentically a good girl, and the good girl is this archetype of a woman who tries to be always sweet, always docile, compliant, obedient, nice, serving others, pleasing others, being everything for everyone, trying to prove her worth and her value in order to get love or acceptance or affection or attention or attachment back. And she's over giving and over serving and really at the expense of her own nourishment, just trying to prove her worth and her value. And that's exactly what I was doing with my business and with the internet is.
Speaker 2:I mean, it got to the point, cat, where, like people were asking for a payment plan for a $77 workshop and I was like, okay, sure, like you can pay it in two payments and you know, or like feel without fear is a four month payment plan.
Speaker 2:And we had somebody email and be like, well, I can't do it in four, but I could do it in six, can I? Can I do that? And I didn't say yes to that one, by the way, but like it just got to this point where it was like the more accessible and affordable I was trying to make my offerings, the less money I was making, and like, the more inauthentic I was being and I was like, oh, I'm trying to prove by giving away all of this free and really cheap stuff, I'm trying to prove my worth and my value so that people will want to buy the more expensive paid stuff. Like I'm trying to prove to you, if this is what I'm giving you away for free, if this is what I'm giving you for so low cost, imagine what's inside my paid containers. I mean, I'm trying to prove to you that I'm giving away for free. If this is what I'm giving you for so low cost, imagine what's inside my paid containers.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's explicitly what a lot of business coaches tell people to do.
Speaker 2:I know, and that's so not authentic for me and at one point it did feel authentic for me, I would say in the very early stages of my business, like that is a pretty normal thing to do, is you kind of have to get your yourself established right and you do that by providing really valuable free content. But I've done that and I'm on year four of my business at this point and my business is not a baby like on the tit anymore, my business is a teenager, you know, and the internet doesn't know about this, but you do. But I'll share in this pattern of feeling resentment and burnt out and all of that. I sent messages to two separate friends where I literally said I feel like a cow that's been milked and milked and milked and I have nothing left to give. But if I don't keep letting myself be milked I won't be nourished and I shit you not.
Speaker 2:The next day I woke up and my right breast was like tender, painful, hard and hot and I remember texting you, being like what would a Chinese medicine practitioner do about this? And but really my body was just. It was finally like I came to the realization in a mental way and the unconscious became conscious, I feel like a cow that's been milked and milked and I have nothing left to give. The next day, my body responded with with a manifestation of a physical symptom of literally like a clogged duct or like mastitis or like and I haven't nursed a baby in 18 years, so I don't have any other explanation for that other than my body was like yes, bitch, you finally got it. This is how I feel, um and so, just in the last few days, like, I've taken all of this action because I found my anger about it and I figured out how to channel my anger into like, making a really clear boundaries post on my on my account and pinning it to the top of my account about like here are my boundaries for this space and if you don't like it, you need to unfollow me.
Speaker 2:Making another really, really clear post that I pinned to the top of my account about how, yes, I do believe that this work should be accessible and affordable, but I, as a human, am not in such a space of energetic, emotional and financial overflow that I can make that possible for everyone, and so if you are in a really tough spot financially and your basic needs are not met, not only can I not help you, but it would be irresponsible of me to try to help you because you need to get your basic needs met and I can't help you do that. And if you are in a space of my work feels expensive for you and it's out of your budget right now but you have other extras in your life, like Starbucks or you know, you get your snatch waxed or you get manicures and pedicures or like whatever then it's your responsibility to come up with creative ways to afford my work. It's not my responsibility to create all these custom payment plans and discounts and you know this and that, because that is what leads to the resentment and the burnout. And it's me trying to prove myself and like realizing that and letting myself feel the full emotional wave of the burnout, the resentment, and then not mobilizing into anger, channeling the anger into taking healthy action that establishes boundaries and protects my energy and my nourishment.
Speaker 2:Like it was like a switch flipped so quickly and I ended up like 10 people joined my program that day, like it was me who wasn't embodying my authenticity. It wasn't that people weren't getting what my offering was about or that they weren't understanding it. I think the energy of being in that desperate people pleasing like please meet my needs, please meet my needs, please say I'm worth it, please see my value. Like that is a really that is a really repelling energy, and it's not who I authentically am. And so as soon as I spotted it and shifted my energy, it like opened up for nourishment to come in in a way that it had not been coming in, and it was completely my responsibility and within my authenticity to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would also say to that, like, like having walked next to you through that Again, it's these, these interesting spirals that our bodies and our lives, our souls take us on is. We were having a conversation and you said the sentence I'm not allowed to feel resentful towards my business. I did say that and I pinned that in my mind and I was like, oh, that's a curious thing to say. And then you started talking about feel without fear and like, like you were just going off about how, like, if people could just feel into their feelings and, you know, not be afraid of any of their feelings and they could, you know, really get down into what the root core of their feelings are, and like that's going to relieve so much suffering in the world. And I know how important this work is and I know how like, like you were, like you were on this like roll.
Speaker 2:And you're like take your own medicine, lynvy.
Speaker 1:But I mean this is why we teach.
Speaker 1:What we teach, you know, is because we're not immune to it.
Speaker 1:We continue like, like you know, I stepped up my husband last week. You felt like you couldn't feel into your resentment resentment was not a safe emotion for you and and we continue to go on these spirals and these journeys and to me, that makes you know if I'm on the receiving end of like being in your audience or being a client of yours, like you're a safer person because you are authentic about the process that you're in and continue to be in all the time. You're not coming at it from this like guru status of like well, I figured it all out and you know you should feel without fear because you should, you know, do it the way that I did it. No, it's, it's. You are actively integrating and learning these lessons as you're teaching them, and I know that for myself, oftentimes, if I land on like a concept to teach about universe is going to like bitch, slap me With that same lesson and be like hey, if you really want to lead people on that journey, like you got to figure this piece out, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yup, yup. I'm curious because just this year you totally changed your business name and like, did new colors and everything else. You went from empowered curiosity to it actually being your name and like. I cannot imagine that that didn't involve another level of like uncovering authenticity and then stepping into that and embodying that.
Speaker 1:Mm. Hmm, yeah, the name change was interesting Because, well, I think it hits on two things for me. I talk about commitment I'll reference the episode in my show notes here because I can't remember the number of it but I talk about how my business went through a contraction period where, like literally everything dried up. I was doing all the quote-unquote right things and I was able to pay all my bills. I was able to pay my employees, but like I could not pay myself for a couple of months, and like I really think about signs and symptoms from the body as being storytellers and messengers. Just like your boob was trying to tell you, hey, like we're kind of fucking tired of giving milk away for free.
Speaker 1:And I think that businesses are the same. You know there's signs and symptomology and instead of looking at the signs and symptoms as something that's broken, that needs to be fixed, I've trained myself to look at them and be like okay, so like what are you trying to communicate with me here? You know, and sometimes the only sign and symptom that my business can show me is by going through a contraction, because I'm either not listening or I haven't quite learned that lesson. And so we went through a contraction period last year, last winter, and what came out of it is this like deep understanding that I haven't fully committed to my business. Like I was still thinking of it as like we're dating, like we're seriously dating, but like I'm not like married to this right, and part of that comes from my own family conditioning of the women in my family have always told me like keep a door open. Like you always need to have an exit plan, you always need to be independent, you always need to have the ability to like extract yourself from any sort of situation, and so my exit plan for my business was to not call it my own name and to not attach my name to it, because I had gone through an experience with Kathleen Lee acupuncture when I sold that it was a really, really hard business to sell because my name was attached to it. And so I was thinking well, if I ever want to sell empowered curiosity, I want it to be essentially marketable for someone to take in and take over, and what I realized is that there's so much of myself that's built into my business that even if I like stopped doing this thing, that business would die with it. It's not a thing that somebody can just come in and take over and be like I'm going to do this in lieu of cat, and so that was reason one for changing the name of my business, because I felt like my business was saying, like, can we get fucking married yet? Like I feel like I'm in and you aren't fully in, so, and so to me, like taking on my name felt like a commitment ceremony.
Speaker 1:The other piece is that my name, specifically my whole name, has been a source of shame. So my name is Kathleen Paul Lee. My parents, being Korean and not really understanding you know naming semantics, gave me the middle name Ho, because in Korean my name is E-Ho-Soo, and so they were like, well, just take the middle initial of her name and put it in as the middle name of her English name, and the word Ho also has significance in Korean. And so, like, like they were like bestowing me this middle name in honor in my English name and, as you can imagine, it was a source of like a lot of teasing growing up and a lot of very confused looks on, you know teacher spaces when they would call my name for the first time in class, and so I really sort of just like divorced myself from my middle name for a very long time and this last year has been a big journey in you know, asking my parents a lot about the Korean culture, a lot about the lineage.
Speaker 1:My parents are also just a bit unusual in that, like they, they too I don't think I realized how much they too have had to straddle two worlds.
Speaker 1:Like to me, they've always felt very, very Korean, but they've moved back to Korea now and they don't fully fit in with like, like Korean Koreans, and so now they have their own community of like expat Koreans who are just like them, where, like you know, koreans who have moved to the States in their when they were in their early 20s and have moved back now in retirement and so they have this nice little community where they get to feel like they belong.
Speaker 1:But I don't think I had fully realized, like, how, how, outside of of you know American and Korean culture, they felt tail, and so this year has been like a deep exploration in like can I just own both sides of myself, which is the Korean side and the American side, and to me, growing up Korean in a, in a mostly white community, I've always felt like and also it feels weird for me to say this out loud, but like have also like created situations where I'm the token Korean or the token Asian kid Because I felt like I could find better belonging in that space, and and so to me, calling my business Kathleen Hossou Lee is like a reclamation of like and just sort of being unapologetic of you know both sides of me, you know both sides of my cultures.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so it's a reclamation of your authenticity. Yeah, yeah, and it's going to continue to unfold, because I don't know that I'll ever fully understand what it means to be Korean If my parents are having trouble sort of assimilating back into Korean life, like it's. It's, yeah, it's definitely going to be a journey, but it's, it's something that feels really important for me to figure out, like and accept, like where I am and the space that I occupy within these two cultures.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, big journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm not, and I'm definitely not done yet. That one's going to be, that one's going to be a lifelong one, I think.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, for sure, and I similarly. I mean, I don't have the Korean complexity built into my story at all but I also had a lot of shame about my name, lindsay Lockett, growing up, because Lockett is my biological father's name and, like, when my mom divorced him and then remarried and we moved to this very small clicky town, it was very taboo to be from a divorced home, and so if my last name was different from my mom's last name, or like I had a step brother who was two grades younger than me, so we went to the same school, and so if my last name was different from his last name, then kids would know that we were from a broken home and I felt really self conscious about that, and so I just decided that I would take on my stepfather's last name, even though he legally didn't adopt me. I would just say, like this is what I want to be known as. And yeah, it was only in like 2020, when I finally had this realization that, like I had been trying to assume this other identity in order to fit in, and that when my soul was like, put on this planet, my soul chose my parents, who they were, and the name Lindsay Lockett and like that was the name my soul came here to be and I've been running from it for my whole life and I had felt ashamed and embarrassed of it my whole life. And you know, I, my legal last name, is my partner's last name, but more and more people are knowing me by Lindsay Lockett instead of his last name and that's how I introduce myself now even I'm not sure if I'll have it legally changed back. I mean it still says lock it on my birth certificate, but I'm not sure if I'll ever legally have it changed back like where it's on my driver's license, my passport and all of that.
Speaker 2:It feels okay to be known as Lindsay Lockett. You know, online and in my circle of friends that feels really good and the reclamation of like this is who my name authentically is and I don't have to hide this anymore and I don't have to feel ashamed or embarrassed about it anymore. And the more I've allowed myself to have that name, the more I'm like you know it's so cute that my mom chose a name with like this alliteration. You know, like alliterative names are so cute, I think. And yeah, I literally never felt that until I was like 38, because all through great school. It was like you know. I just was like, oh, I feel so embarrassed about this name, like yeah, so I just think it's really powerful that we've both in the last few years, reclaimed like our true names, as part of embodying that authenticity more. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I love that. I don't think I knew that your, your legal name was David's, because I just knew you as Lindsay Lockett, you know.
Speaker 2:I don't like telling people on the internet what it is, because I like to maintain my privacy.
Speaker 1:I think there's one more piece that I want to sort of play with. I imagine that this is something that'll resonate with with both of our audiences is? I often get this question of like, how can you be so authentic online? Like, how can you be so vulnerable, how can you like share all of your personal things? And so I'd love to hear how you would answer that question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get that question a lot too. In fact, I have two DMs sitting in my inbox right now that are flagged, of women who've said could you please do a podcast on being authentic online Please?
Speaker 1:You can send them this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they say the same thing about me is they're like how do you do this? How do you show up so authentic? How do you just speak your truth and say whatever's on your mind and have these hot takes and you're so bold about it and unapologetic and like how, how, how? And my answer to that is like at this point I don't know that I could give somebody a like well, start here and then do this, and then do this and then do this, like I don't think I could distill it down into any kind of linear process in that way. But at the same time I would say that I feel like you get to a point where you have uncovered enough of your authenticity and it feels so good and so satisfying and so nourishing to be in your authenticity that it really isn't a choice anymore. It's just how you show up.
Speaker 2:Like I don't wake up in the morning and go hmm, I wonder what is the most vulnerable post I could make today? Like that's not what I'm thinking about when I'm creating content. I'm just creating whatever is coming up for me or whatever feels relevant to my offer, or whatever I'm processing at that time or whatever, and I'm just no longer afraid of using authentic vulnerable language or authentic vulnerable expression and, that being seen, I'm not afraid of it anymore. So it's not really a choice of like okay, I'm going to be authentic and vulnerable. It's like people ask how can you do this? It feels so hard. And to me it doesn't feel hard because authenticity is the most natural thing in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I love that it's harder to pretend to be someone you're not and it's harder to pretend to like to hide and to make yourself more palatable and to censor, like. To me that is harder than just being like okay, world, here's, here's who here's me, here's who I am, and like sometimes I'm going to get this wrong and that is, it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And again, I think that that's where, like, people are just so scared of the rupture, where they don't allow themselves to be authentic and like that's one of the things that you've taught me as a friend is to like not be scared of the rupture from the internet, because the internet is, like, as much as we try to create you know these I still call my people my community, because I feel like there's I'm small enough where there's reciprocity there, but I'm feeling that sort of stretch, even in my space, where the reciprocity is, is going to feel unbalanced, like pretty quickly. And and so, like I think that when we're so scared of that rupture because we're being told by other people out there like hey, like, in order to be a successful online coach, you need to have as many followers as possible, and so then the the intentionality shifts and changes away from I really want to connect and I really want to be authentic and I really want to sort of share from my heart and shifts into I have to figure out ways to get more followers, like that's that's a huge, huge sort of like leap in intention and and to me, that that's a that's a pretty hard leap and something that I try to lead people back into is like, hey, like it's okay to have ruptures, even on the internet, because your people will find you. It's actually going to help your people feel more safe. I think for me, when I think about showing up authentically and showing up vulnerably online, I still have a pretty hard boundary around.
Speaker 1:I share things that I feel in regulation about, and so I do a lot of my processing with my inner circle, whether that's my husband or Andre, who's my best friend, or Chi, choose, my other best friend, or you like.
Speaker 1:I do a lot of that within my inner circle, and so, by the time I share something online, while it is vulnerable and it is authentic, it is not coming from a place where I need something from my audience and I'm needing them to take care of me, because I get that care taken care of, like through my own personal reciprocal relationships where there is like a strong culture of reciprocity, because if I go looking for that on the internet, that's going to be a well that can never, never get tapped, you know, and so I think that that's where people get a little bit confused is like like we have to have our needs met outside of the internet so that we can show up as coaches online and give. And when that balance becomes upset, that's where we sort of go into the resentment space and we have to like also like guard that space, you know pretty intimately so that we don't flip into like over giving and you know the experience that you have this month of like feeling resentful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I have a real that at this point it's gotten like over 800,000 views or something. It's ridiculous, but I'm literally driving in my car and I was listening to some music that brought up some really strong emotion for me, and music is one of the ways that, like, if I need to, if I really need to amplify an emotion so I can fully feel it, I find some kind of music that like resonates for me in that way.
Speaker 1:Hold on, I'm going to tell there's like a lot of talking.
Speaker 2:Okay, hold on, I'm going to use the bathroom.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. I cannot wait to not live there, you're so close.
Speaker 2:Okay, where were we? Authenticity, vulnerability online showing up and having boundaries.
Speaker 2:Not hard. Oh, the reel that I had that was like all these Okay. So yeah, I have this reel that has had like over 800,000 views at this point and it's just literally me in my car and I was having some abandonment stuff come up, but I felt like it was like I wasn't able to totally access it. And so something that I do is I use music to evoke emotion or to amplify emotion so that I can like feel it fully, and so I was playing this song that was bringing up a lot of sadness and grief and also that like familiar feeling of abandonment, and so the reel is literally just me in my car listening to this song and crying, and then I put a caption over it that was about like complex PTSD and emotional abandonment and how it feels like, even though I logically know I'm not being abandoned, it still feels triggering to me. And I got so many comments, which I know people are so well meaning and they're so kind and I appreciate it so much. But people were like, oh, lindsay, it's going to be okay, just hang in there, you've got this like you know all that kind of stuff, and I just I find it so interesting how like I wasn't sharing that post to get support from my audience. Yeah, like I didn't need people to say, hang in there, you've got this, it's going to be okay, it's going to pass, it gets easier. Like I already know all of that Right. Like the only reason I'm able to share something like that is because I feel so safe in holding myself through something like that.
Speaker 2:And what I wish I could like blast out to the internet is like the compassion and the empathy, the sympathy that you feel for me. Direct it toward your inner child. Like because I've got me and I have community. Like my husband and my friend, honor, and you and other friends. Like I have people that if I really need somebody to tell me it's going to be okay, you've got this, you know you've gone through this trigger before you're going to get through it again.
Speaker 2:Like if I needed that kind of encouragement and support. I already have people who give that to me, so I get that. People like they want to offer compassion and I appreciate it so much. But at the same time, I'm also like it does make me pause before I share videos like that, because I'm like some people are going to perceive this as me being dysregulated and asking for sympathy, and I'm not like I've already integrated this experience by the time I've posted about it. I've just gotten so usually comfortable with feeling my feelings and facing them without fear that it's not hard anymore for me to turn a camera on when I'm in the middle of a hard moment.
Speaker 2:But I have you know, for every one time I turn the camera on, I have nine other times when I don't you know and I think that's really important to name, too is that part of my authenticity is that there are sacred, private things that I keep to myself and that I don't feel like I need to share with the internet, and that's part of my own processing. But yes to what you're saying about showing up dysregulated and needing the caretaking of your audience and all of that like that doesn't feel good for me either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and the thing that I'm finding, and to me, I think of everything being a spiritual practice, and so I'm going to view it through that lens. But, like social media, this year in particular has been an interesting spiritual practice because I'm starting to learn that, like so there's a discernment piece around being dysregulated about sharing, and then the subject that I'm actually sharing about, yeah, because I used to feel pretty dysregulated about the sharing piece in general, I'm a pretty I think people are oftentimes surprised to hear that I'm an introvert, like I am a hermit to my core, and so like, even just sharing things was a hard thing for me of like being seen especially as somebody who grew up in a space where, you know, the not enoughness story meant that I had to blend in. I had to be sort of like like gray and like not stand out, and, and so I had to do a lot of work around just being able to share. But once I was able to integrate that piece, I found that the discernment around what I share got a lot more clear. And so you know well, I, I too, can't give you a stuff wise, sort of like, we do this and this and this.
Speaker 1:I'll say to that, like I have a pattern in a lot of my clients where we, a lot of us carry around this wound, around being seen, and so like that feels like a really good first step to play with and try to understand and unpack. And everyone's a little bit different, which is where I think that having a close, trusted, confidant, a friend, a partner, a coach is so important to help you, because oftentimes it's so hard to like whenever I hear that story of like I have trouble being seen, it's like, oh, you actually have trouble seeing yourself, and so I think that that's a good place to start for anybody who's sort of in that space like wondering, well, you know, how can you be so authentic, how can you be so vulnerable? It's like, well, let's start with you.
Speaker 1:You know like how do you see yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna share a juicy confession. Okay, like it may really surprise you and may really surprise our listeners to hear this from me. I actually do not like being watched. It's not that I'm afraid to be seen, I don't like being watched. Here's what I mean.
Speaker 2:I grew up as a competitive baton twirler. I started at the age of six. Baton twirling is kind of like ice skating. It's a very expensive solo sport and there's lots of costumes and shoes and equipment and traveling and you know coaching and like all of that. I did not receive any of that through my school. It's not a school sport the way that a lot of you know. It's not a team sport. So my, my mom cleaned houses in order to afford to be able to pay for my lessons and my costumes and the traveling and the competition entry fees and all of that.
Speaker 2:And then when you compete as a twirler, you, you are the only one performing and there is a panel of judges watching you and they're literally sitting there with like they haven't, it's like it's a judge and then their assistant and the assistant has like a score sheet and the judge is watching and every time you drop your baton, every time you don't point your toe, every time your free hand is like out of place, every time your leg isn't straight, when you do a kick or a leg hold or something like that, they make a note to the assistant so like you can actually see them as they're judging. You drop the baton and the judge looks or says to the assistant, without even turning her eyes to the assistant, the judge says drop, drop. And so every drop is marked and that's part of the score. Every time your toes not pointed it's marked. Every time your leg is bent, it's marked, like all of these different things. And so then and then, depending on the difficulty, like that's noted, the lack of difficulty, how it could have been more difficult, like all of this is noted, and then it's scored against other competitors and then whoever scores the highest is who wins in that age and ability group.
Speaker 2:So what comes up for me when people watch me in something that I'm not feeling completely like polished in or an expert at or comfortable in, I feel really like scared Emotions is not something I feel scared about. So when people watch, when I am watched in a vulnerable emotional moment, that does not feel scary to me because I am, I feel at this point, like very emotionally intelligent and can hold myself and aware and like all of that. But if you and I were to go to a bar and be like let's do karaoke, like I would have such a hard time doing that and it's not because I'm trying to be a great singer or whatever, it's because I don't like being watched. Same thing in the bedroom I don't like being watched because it's not totally something that I feel is like polished and I'm an expert at and all of that. So like I'm saying that to offer that some people, because of their own projections, if they're not comfortable with their own emotional expression and vulnerability, they're going to be really uncomfortable with other people's emotional expression and vulnerability. But like, if you're uncomfortable with your own singing voice, for example, then you're not going to show up and do karaoke because you're afraid that there's going to be all these other people who are way better than you and you're not going to measure up the way that I was with twirling.
Speaker 2:So I just kind of wanted to offer that little bit of complexity, that like there are certain things that it is so easy for me to be like, yeah, I can be seen here I can be seen crying or being angry on the internet. That is not hard, but even like the sensual dancing that I do, I post that on the internet. But I've only done it live in front of my husband once. And when I do it on a video, I can clip off the parts that I don't like I can. I can edit it to only post what feels good to post. One time I danced for my husband. I couldn't even make eye contact with him because it felt so uncomfortable and vulnerable and like, what if I mess up and is he judging me? Like? So I don't know what, if you want to go and do anything with that or not, but like, I just wanted to say that like I am not comfortable being seen in everything, but I am in when it comes to emotional expression.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think the only place where I want to take that now is like when we see each other in person. You know, I'm going to ask you for a dance.
Speaker 2:I feel so scared about that oh seriously.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we're going to a Halloween party. It's an annual Halloween party. Every year we enter the costume contest every year this will be our fourth year to do a costume contest and we won once and they have karaoke there every year and every year I'm like I'm going to do karaoke this year, I'm going to do it, and every year I chicken out, and so I've actually been practicing my karaoke song in the car. Oh, I'm trying to like psych myself up about doing karaoke this year and I still don't know if I'm actually going to do it. Yeah, but I will try really hard to dance for you, if I can.
Speaker 1:I probably won't make eye contact To the extent that you feel safe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's the thing, though, is like, even if I don't feel safe, it is a good opportunity to like widen my window of tolerance, to doing something uncomfortable in a safe environment and with a safe person yeah, which sometimes that's how we learn to embody our authenticity is by dipping our toe in the water with a safe other person, letting ourselves be seen a little bit, and then that becomes a little bit more familiar, and then it still feels scary, but then we keep trying and like eventually it doesn't become as hard as it was whenever we first started. So maybe that's our. My other tip for people who are wanting to be more authentic online is like you got to dip your toe in the water at some point. You got to. Like you got to try at some point.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean you have to show up, like doing imagined reprocessing of anger at your mother, but like maybe you start with like sharing part of your story that feels really tender, or you know whatever, but like eventually you do it enough times that it desensitizes you to any shitty comments that people leave, or you know, I can't stop people, even though my intention is not to get caretaking from my audience.
Speaker 2:I don't need that need net, need met, because I have people in my life who do that for me, but I can't help it that people are going to do that anyway and so I just have to keep doing my stuff, and it gives people the bravery to do that with themselves and hopefully it helps people see like you can do scary things on the internet and they're not actually as scary as you think they are. You've got a story that's making it much bigger than it actually is, which is the same thing with dancing in front of my husband, right, like he's not going to divorce me if I like don't do a perfect sexy dance in front of him. You know, like what the fuck am I actually afraid of? I'm afraid of being judged like I was judged as a twirler and not performing up to the standard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know what the equivalent of this would be for you or for anybody else who's listening, but I came from a very similar sort of like background of being in fiddle competitions and being in like violin competitions and same thing.
Speaker 1:It's like you hit like a flat F and they count that against you and, quite honestly, the thing that helped me work through that was roller derby, because I chose a sport, not consciously, but I chose a sport where it's like you can't fucking play on every single move and you're going to fall and you're going to mess up and there's a lot of things that are outside of your control, and so I don't know if like, like finding some sort of expression where the expectation is that you're gonna mess up and that you're not gonna do it perfectly Like. I found that to be helpful for me in my own journey of like being watched and like towards the end of playing Roller Derby I had to quit because I had to stop getting injured. But like, towards the end, the integration that I found was like I actually really loved playing in bouts and like being seen and watched, like in that space.
Speaker 1:So there was but again like like that slow stepping into it and having those disconfirming experiences in the first, like the first game I played, I was just like terrified and frozen and could not move. And like, over time your nervous system starts to learn like, oh, actually it's safe, like you're gonna be okay, like you will not die, your husband will not divorce you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, me doing the sexy dance for him. He's like fuck, yeah, this is awesome.
Speaker 1:I'm terrible at you.
Speaker 2:Right, like he doesn't care. But in my head I'm like, oh my gosh, like my legs feel so shaky and like what if I don't, you know, do this ride or whatever? And I right now I'm currently choreographing my own dance for my winter recital for my dance school and coming up against the same things. It's like love it, what? Like I don't want to make it too easy because then it's not challenging, but I don't want to over extend myself and make it too hard and then I can't like practice it enough to get it. But I have to perform it live because I'm going to strip cabin with my dance teacher and and other people in the class in Tennessee at the beginning of December and like I have to perform this on a stage in front of all the people there live. Like I don't get to edit anything, I don't get to just take the clips that are there really good parts of me and leave out the parts that aren't very good. So that feels really, really scary.
Speaker 1:Well, I just love this for you because I follow your dance teacher, lux, and like she seems like a very, very safe, like, like celebratory person, so like this is going to be the perfect thing.
Speaker 1:And this is what I mean is like like when you have a need and you have a desire. Actually, this I would consider this to be a desire to like work through a particular pattern. Right, when you have that desire, you as an adult, have the capacity and ability to sort of design the right experience to set yourself up for success, whereas we didn't have that as children, correct, and so you get to, in your adult life, create experiences where you are more likely to be authentic than not. And I think that that's an important part of this healing journey is like recognizing that you do have a lot more power than you give yourself credit for and and that in that power, if you can reach into those spaces that help you feel authentic, like whether that's through experiences or people or relationships like take this, however you want to take this as a listener, but yeah, I'm celebrating you over here and I can't wait to hear about it afterwards.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'll probably send you the video. Yeah, yeah, I think the you know one. One other thing that might be just a point of interest in all of this is that you can find that it is easier to show up authentic, like truly fully authentic, sometimes on the Internet more than in my real life relationships, because for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no attachment at risk on the Internet. Like I'm not sacrificing my authenticity online so that I can retain the attachment of my followers or my audience. Like I don't have an attachment relationship with the Internet, I do have an attachment relationship with David and with you and with other people in my life, and so sometimes that's actually where it's harder for me to show up authentic, because there feels like there's more at stake and it feels like I might be risking attachment in order for me to be authentic. And so, yeah, I can see how it goes both ways.
Speaker 2:Like some people have a struggle being authentic period and some people, like they've got a few people in their real life they can be authentic with, but being authentic online feels like the big, scary monster under the bed. And you know, in my case, being authentic online is easy at this point. Being authentic in my relationship with David is easy at this point. With you, it's easy at this point. I have a couple other relationships where it's not always easy and and the good news is that there's a lot of stuff that like I can talk through that with them and be like, hey, here's, here's where I wasn't being on authentic because I was afraid of this, or I felt like I couldn't say this or whatever.
Speaker 1:So but I mean, even in our relationship, I feel like we've worked through a lot of spaces where, like you're, like, is it okay for me to be this big? Like, am I in this way? And you know, I'm the kind of person where, like I just I want and crave connection that feels authentic. And so I'm like, yeah, girl, take up all the space you want.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I thought you're the old. You and David are the only people who've ever told me in my entire life like I love your bigness, like I've only heard that from you and David. And it means so much to hear that because, yeah, it really doesn't mean a lot, because my mom even used to tell me up I mean up until in the last couple of years, like my whole married life with David, and we've been together for 22 years and she would regularly say you better make sure you keep him around, because he's the only one who will put up with you. And that, like it just cemented to me over and over and over you're too much, you're too big, like you're too needy, you take up too much space and he's the only one that will ever put up with you. And so just that made me get smaller and smaller and smaller.
Speaker 2:And it's only been in the last like five years that I've started like, and I don't see myself as a big person, like I don't. I don't look at myself and go, oh, you are so big and you have such big energy, and like I don't, like I don't see that in myself. It's just like this is how I am and I understand that for some people that does come across as really big, but I also have a calling to do really big work in the world, and so like I need an energy that can match the work that I'm called to do in the world. Otherwise my work will just overwhelm me if I don't have a big enough energy to match it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Well, my dear Thanks for having this conversation. Yeah, that was fun.
Speaker 2:That was our first webs of truth episode, yay.
Speaker 1:And there's going to be lots of love on a lovely web. Yeah, I mean I love the name of our pot or, I guess, sub podcast is that what we're calling this? Sure our shop podcast, because I feel like our conversations do kind of have this like webby. You know, sort of we don't have a linear thought process. You put two people with with ADHD together.
Speaker 2:And tons of awareness and tons of curiosity and tons of emotional intelligence like, yeah, that is not going to be a conversation that goes in a straight line for sure. We just keep spiraling around and deeper and deeper and deeper.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, we're being here and we'll put anyone out next month.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are. Do we remember what our topic is about next month?
Speaker 1:I think I named it and then I can't remember what I my scroll brain forgot.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's okay, we'll figure it out. Yeah Well, I hope everyone enjoyed our first webs of truth episode All righty.
Speaker 1:Bye.